Will robots and artificial intelligence replace human workers and create mass unemployment? The panel discusses whether we will see a jobless future and the implications of widespread automation. Recorded 30 July 2017.
Shownotes:
Our Jobless Future
In a series of articles over the last several years, we’ve been bombarded with the message that a jobless future is about to happen.
We see articles like:
- Rise of the Robots: Technology and the Threat of a Jobless Future
- The 4th Industrial Revolution And A Jobless Future – A Good Thing?
- The ‘Jobless Future’ Is A Myth
- The jobless world and its discontents
- Wealth without workers, workers without wealth (The Economist)
The 4th Industrial Revolution And A Jobless Future – A Good Thing? Bernard Marr, Forbes, March 2017:
It’s estimated that between 35 and 50 percent of jobs that exist today are at risk of being lost to automation. Repetitive, blue collar type jobs might be first, but even professionals — including paralegals, diagnosticians, and customer service representatives — will be at risk.
This isn’t just science fiction, it’s happening now. Manufacturing are the first places we see robots and automation eliminating human jobs, but it’s hard to think of an industry that will be left unaffected as robots and AI become more affordable and widespread.
Will there be a jobless future?
new types of jobs for the future
what kind of new types of jobs?
jobs that have to do with innovation and creativity?
MC: humans will be like dogs
HOS: sci-fi robots vs humans will come to pass. new energy sources will .
robots consume different resources, not in competition. automation is our creation
these robots will be our creation, but they will not obey us or do everything only we want.
Daniel: do you think with creativity, no bounds?
Michael O: create differnt scenarios, if that scenario happens. capacity to innovate.
MichaelO: critical roles will still be humanistic.
– we will need humans to teach other human beings
JOB:
“a piece of work, especially a specific task done as part of the routine of one’s occupation or for an agreed price”
How will things look different? Will it bring social unrest?
Hos: look at today, and compare it with 100 years ago.
Hos: must take into account backlashes
Hos: Liquid democracy, hundreds of decisions per day in the morning
Michael O: need internet to acquire innovation
How will things stay the same? (NOBILITY)
Psychological, human games
Subordination, dominance, agression, love, passion
Different classes of people, class struggle
**Material needs will be addressed by automation, completely free
Creating value for yourself and value for other people
Organizations will become more powerful
What can we do today to make such a world a better place?
Empathy: wider and deeper
first thing is to dehumanize opponents
design empathy into technology, or our technology with empathy
JOBS <> PROSPERITY,
Focus on minimum wage is the wrong thing. Wal-mart makes things cheaper
IF everything is virtually free, then even the tiniest amount of money
Nobility model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility#Noble_privileges
“Most nobles’ wealth derived from one or more estates, large or small, that might include fields, pasture, orchards, timberland, hunting grounds, streams, etc. It also included infrastructure such as castle, well and mill to which local peasants were allowed some access, although often at a price. Nobles were expected to live “nobly”, that is, from the proceeds of these possessions. Work involving manual labour or subordination to those of lower rank (with specific exceptions, such as in military or ecclesiastic service) was either forbidden (as derogation from noble status) or frowned upon socially.”
Elevator Pitch Battle:
– Michael C Robots sponsor prize purses for athletic competitions to give humans something to do, The top 10,000 athletes
– Michael O Robot education to improve human capacity
– Daniel V Things that scale will be automated. Things that don’t scale will continue. AI that does new types of music. Analyze how this progress.
– Hos: surveys. better future in a jobless society, more feedback so our priorities get channelled better. democracy. incentivize surveys, earn cryptocurrencies.
Episode Machine Transcript (unedited and uncorrected)
This isn’t just science fiction it’s happening now let’s make the future.
I mean.
OK well this can be the conversation we got a good group already let’s not go away and then we can bring somebody else in if they need to any other thoughts guys otherwise we can just start talking about the future OK let’s do it.
Let’s make the future a discussion about future trends technology and their implications in society.
Featuring.
Michael.
Michael.
This episode’s discussion topic our jobless future in a series of articles over the last several years we’ve been bombarded with the message that a jobless future is about to happen and we’ve see articles like Rise of the robots technology and the threat of a jobless future the fourth industrial revolution and a jobless future a good thing but jobless future is a myth the jobless world and its Discontents wealth without workers workers without well all quote at length from Bernard Marr is Forbes article in March twenty seventeen to paint kind of a picture of what people are visualizing for the future here it’s estimated that between thirty five and fifty percent of jobs that exist today are at risk of being lost to automation repetitive blue collar type jobs might be first but even professionals including paralegals diagnosticians and customer service representatives will be at risk this isn’t just science fiction it’s happening now manufacturing are the first places we see robots and automation eliminating human jobs but it’s hard to think of an industry that will be left unaffected as robots in AI become more affordable and widespread rather than fight this advancement and wring our hands over the robots stealing our jobs maybe it’s time to. Invision a jobless future most people are in jobs they don’t particularly enjoy with lots of Mundine and repetitive tasks is it not our obligation to pass those jobs to machines from a business standpoint any consultant would tell you that any task that can be systematized and automated should be many jobs are not jobs humans should waste their time doing so According to Bernard Marr The challenge is to rethink our economic model to ensure the people who will be doing something are doing something interesting and enjoyable so I’d like to open this discussion by first asking whether these articles have it right do we all think there will be a jobless future do we think that automation will take all of our jobs I think automation will take many jobs that we know of jobs today but the question is What are the new types of jokes that humans can offer to the new markets of the future or do you think guys or kind of jobs can you and to Tang that it’s something at beyond the ability of our all parts or an AI as Michael said My She didn’t get our jobs and the question should now be are we going to. Be features jobs I think won’t do they don’t do it you know that and. I don’t that I think on the issue some day that you know you could be human.
Being right on this guy right and do that in my view who I think I’ve been one of them so that I’m all the things that we might have to look at maybe I’ll do it on their i just want to clarify how do you define create in this context.
It’s been a human being to create you about do you know inside creation the process of the.
Convent right robot to do that even the silicon but it also will need to create robots that and then that you can. You don’t say OK I’d like to challenge you guys because I’ve heard two people offer their opinion about whether there will be a jobless future and you’ve both said basically no you’ve said there are limits to how many jobs can be automated and Michael said that there will be jobs involving innovation and creativity involving creating robots that can still exist that humans can still have and then Haas is also implied that such jobs will exist in the future new types of jobs will still exist for humans but I’d like to challenge that idea because what’s coming down the pike here is artificial intelligence which is artificial intelligence like what we have to offer in our jobs is our intelligence so if we’ve created an artificial version of that then we don’t have anything to offer and every conceivable job that a human can do could be replaced by a computer that has the same cognitive abilities as a human and the same dextrous manipulating capabilities as a human so my position on this matter about whether there will be a jobless future is yes and in fact there will be no place for humans whatsoever in the economy we will have no role we will be like dogs and AI and robots will be making everything for us so you assume that creativity like your subcomponents off intelligence so you would say that you know know people that are very intelligent creative or innovative I think that creativity is something that can be modeled in a computer yes I think it’s something that we even talked about last week where our guest Sandra was able to explain to us some techniques to become more creative and by programming those techniques into a computer we could theoretically make a robot that’s created OK So I think you know patience more about the question is if we can basically have all immigration to a computer as you said because. Like I swore something like based on given data on historical data can reproduce it and I can optimized way but the questions can really go I take the next step and also you know very good point unfortunately I was not here last episode and I hadn’t had to translate into its soul how exactly would you call a script to be to I think it was a series of exercises involving you know it’s a good question I forget some of it now my human frailties are exposed here I don’t remember the exact details but it seemed like he had painted a pretty good picture of how to do it I wanted to point out our attention towards He ward here that we can play around with its resources I don’t think humans and the robots and AI are going to compete with each other you know way we imagine that is induced by so I find movies because I think we don’t share the same resources let’s say in near future renewable energies are gonna pro-US countless amounts of energy that comes from renewable resources once they’re extracted from either sun or when there are other sources yeah human resources are usually like food and air and things they need to survive as basic needs so on it’s you don’t create grow bots that require food and have access to the same resources as we do not necessarily we are going to go extinct or something I mean robots see as they’re going to Florida they’re going to take a lot of tasks that we humans are not very realized we humans Vieira de inventors here so we shouldn’t forget the aura being Venters of those things so they’re not evolving by them so they realize at some point but that’s also what we want them to evolve towards So we shouldn’t forget that if they’re going to get so I advanced more than we as individuals can do that’s not a negative thing and yes we wanted to do that we wanted to give all of these jobs that’s why we created that we as humans as one coeur of a species we just don’t want to do on. MADE IT jobs anymore because I DON’T NEED IT jobs you know the stimulate our brain we just get bored we just get bored and it’s psychologically absent as you learn to do something like more than a couple of times you’re going to get bored of it and you’re looking for something that’s a human psychology by its nature doesn’t like automated job doesn’t matter if it’s baking a bread or it’s sending shells to space so automation ease actually out creation so we shouldn’t be afraid of it and scared just because it’s changing everything so racket but we just have to be quitting and come up with how else we can leave our lives I think it’s more than just your petition that AI will be able to cover so I think there’s a lot of methods to it actually but I agree in all our senses which is that the resources that AI will have is basically data so assuming that we will feed all the data we have to AI I still think it’s only can I get so far at some point so if you just imagine bridging all they I could probably say we have I think we will likely win the World with machines can do a lot but then humans will look at it and look at what they can to or what’s humans could do that would be something new or something to make something better so I think there will always be this kind of race that will be going on Michael what do you think you think with creativity there will be basically no bones and machines will always be able to go as far as humans or even further well that is my position here go ahead Michael if you want to imagine if the way human would not do quite well and it being there and we can create that about what that right and we may be you know so and and yeah you know put on a Live from that you do Asian If you have it down and then maybe if you think you know you with an apple at that with a No one with you know you that you know are at the moment to try to get a tree that I think about I did not think that but. You know bait and he may indeed because it’s human the most critical. You know you could create And you know that and that was. From on almost all of life and I think that would continue to be allowed but if you come want to bring it back to the company what will happen in it all that and maybe we end up with that thought and you know maybe I thought no one would be the role of human.
OK I love what Michael just said not just because he’s not conceding my point but instead saying well even if we agree to disagree how would that scenario play out so the answer to my first question I think we don’t agree on which is the question of whether there are even will be a jobless future there’s been some back and forth about this for sure already in our conversation as Michael says though perhaps what we should do is proceed under the assumption now that there will be such a jobless future and now ask ourselves exactly what Michael says which is how will things look different and what will be different in such a world or what would be different in such a world as a concession to the great many people not just in this room but also many smart people don’t think that robots will fully automate all jobs but if we assume that they will what would such a world look like OK Placidus question it’s a great question it’s a golden question here but I want to to again pay attention something just look at today and contrary three hundred years ago you don’t have to look so far in future just look at right now right here the way we are living our lives how many of us are farm and that’s some ten percent of Americans who actually farming right now today so what are they doing it used to be five hundred years ago the only jobs that we could imagine was limited the number of jobs that means threatening jobs which was connected to King and so on I was if it were farming why because most basic needs are the eating so what we need is food so how do we do if you make food so. Everyone that makes food but then now it’s all automated So right now ninety percent of people have right but these are all created jobs that we never saw a commie So what I did jobs in future now I’m just trying to make us optimistic while looking at the east because there’s no better story to look at than the he’s so let’s be off limits but then I want to also point out an engine towards the future what kind of jobs we can see so hoss you’re unwilling to concede this and just accept that the hypothetical possibility that there is no job that you want to return to the first question and continue to debate that first question which is fine but that’s what we’re doing here so you’re going to challenge the idea that there are even could be a jobless future because there have always been jobs so by induction there always will be jobs and I just see this a I revolution is qualitatively different this is why we talk about a singularity because we’re not just replicating humans muscles with horses and machines instead now we’re replicating the intelligence itself and that’s what’s qualitatively different Go ahead Daniel sorry I agree with you Hans that jobs will always change and there will come up jobs that we can’t imagine told he agreed but I think you’re slightly working at the wrong numbers for example and the other will back up Michael’s point is slightly So if you look at companies like a couple decades ago they have companies serving like various millions of customers have like ten thousands of employees if you look at your companies when Instagram started out with like thirteen employees they already were serving thirty million customers on whatsapp before it was purchased by Facebook they had fifty five employees and they served four hundred fifty million customers so I think that’s a trend that clearly says the dispersants that’s going on that this balancing trend and even going further with A being able to make this balance take the spends even further and technology in general but let’s push ahead with what Haas is asking just for a second because it’s a reasonable question and again I think if you did a poll of everyone I’m sure the vast majority would agree. We with high Some would agree with Michael that jobs will continue to exist in the future so I’m very much in the minority in with my position so it’s true what kind of jobs would exist in the future I suppose yeah jobs that involve creativity I suppose jobs that certainly cannot be easily automated or maybe most importantly jobs that a robot or a I could never do which is jobs where people are demanding that they be serviced specifically by a biological human like is there any job where someone wants a biological human in the process and they insist on that like maybe at a fancy restaurant you’ll always want him and serving you that would be the luxury thing to have or are some things like that that’s a great point Michael here I want to make sure we all have the same definition of what is actually Joe Joe is a busy announce some activity you would do to get rewarded by more than what you get the forwarded of doing just the job itself let’s say you’re working on a research project and in five years you make if you eyes that it works or not if you do or it’s your being pay for it because people are speculating that you are going to achieve that goal so in the meantime they fire you money and what do you do with that money you pay for rent which is shelter you buy food which is food again and you do some for entertainment which also goes back to the business that other people are trying to do so you pay other people to eat also and they do things and also so it’s really important to go back to the basics yes we as humans have thought for a long time that we are to smartest and most intelligent think here’s the humanity stick point of view that should be gone we’ll in future we live in a post humanity’s era that we no longer can claim as we did for two hundred years that we are to most intelligent creatures on this planet you know we won’t in two hundred years it will be yes or all parts and AI and all these sorts of things. We created that they’re more intelligent than humans so what we’re going to be species that are being recreated something more intelligent than us but does it mean you’re not going to live or survive year biological create you’re going to add that what do we do we do that how do we had that we had up to the situation that we created ourselves yes or all these other that’s the option but let me bring these examples like yes automation out a pile of cards all of them gone thirty million jobs got so those people what are they gonna do previously they wanted to offer something for other humans yeah you want to go from point A to point B. You don’t want to deal with driving I drive before you and you pay me so I pay for my food but that automation is gone here’s the thing here’s why don’t forget I don’t what is our donation is doing is green being tons of tons of value that we never see calming before so we need no longer need to Warrick’s to get food shelter and also the source AMY I have them no one’s going to take from us because that’s where automation is doing for it’s robots and I’m going to eat our foods are going to make food for us so I sort of get confused because we’re sort of mixing things up like if the question is will there be a jobless future you seem to be saying no there won’t be but even if there is that’s OK because of all these positive things you’re saying like we will benefit from the fact that there’s automation I’m not saying that we might not benefit from it in fact that’s a later question we can ask ourselves but I was hoping first we could settle on the basic question of whether in fact there will be a jobless future here’s why I’m greedy finding jobs here’s why it depends what you how you define job you want to conclude yes or no are you going to live in a jobless a society defines how you define job yes if you see job as something automation that we do in the future is really job if you limit ourselves to job as things that create value for other humans in why. As we know it today yes there will be a job this feature but we’re going to adapt and we’re going to find ways that creates value for other human beings in front ways I’m going to create a video game that you really love nobody knew that they’re going to like you against in future but we all do that’s how I’m going to do the job and if you’re an army OK that’s a fair point let me just jump in re-act So I think I’ll just come back the question I think that I’m critical roles that will probably still be required but you know about even being maybe the example Eve robot can quickly became an you know New Call it came and it had to be young and so on in new forms of things like it came in that not everything before you can get a robot to play in a country or newly back even if it’s to create something new from the scratch maybe something like maybe with the bureaucratically that was through our human being can get a ship for example in Italy people one of that mission I mean it’s a little robot and then who are going to mandate to in education who need to teach future human even if you will but so many would talk to me strategy right strategy something like you know the acting of the book you know it’s not something that Italy welcomes data you need to be a bit distracted to do put extra strategy on you know some of the strategy around that you are that and don’t want to do that or any like parcel human being Tonight play a leading role you know like that that you know our report to the doctor quietly and it just means that we have a future way we don’t have you know we have a no and I and because it would be. No more than saying so given that you can imagine the growing anger she’d want in the increasingly jobless each of that with us to know that I’m on the issues they want to look at people about how do we exit in a way that you talk on though maybe we can be managing if partially job next future maybe not complete object because the obvious will be the first. But you know when to be doing. That how do we see you man you know going you know why don’t you you know on David because I’m going to do what I want to do but you know back to comedy you know going to think I think I don’t want you should want more on it. And nudity and probably something very very different and nice All right so let’s ask that question then how will things look different in a partially jobless future and what kind of future will that look like I can just offer that it seems to me that some jobs will be automated and others may take longer and may take longer to automate so in the near term it seems like the process of unskilled jobs being destroyed will continue and the really big moment will be in the next ten years or so when trucking jobs become eliminated because that’s one of the largest employers in the whole world is trucking jobs and so imagine those millions of people many of whom won’t easily be able to retrain to do a different kind of job what kind of social unrest will that bring in are we already seeing a kind of social unrest in the U.S. political system for example we have a president that’s promised to turn back the clock so to speak in terms of what kinds of jobs he can create and he was elected basically on the back of that hope that he could do that and so I wonder if more and more of these kinds of jobs are eliminated if those people will respond in the political system by electing people to try to reverse or capture gains that continue to exist in other parts of the economy Oh it’s a good point you raise the future and always it doesn’t go the way you would because backlashes So the political atmosphere here is so important we can see that in our current president in the United States a lot of people ordered for someone who would just keep things on change they were afraid of fifty. Better appy change what’s happening in their lives they wanted to slow down and think and they succeeded in some ways and the resistance is always going to be part they slow us down but I don’t think they will complete stop us because history has always moved on and things might get ugly for a while but I don’t think that would affect the whole tragic it’s hard to bend the arc of history yes and the other comments if you know what is commenting I want to also point out to new political systems that are going to health speeding up the process to see to make things easier for everybody and one of the things we can’t always make it a topic for an under discussion is really quick democracy and how Internet is going to replace the current sluggish all the school political systems we have today because having Internet today is lay having massive luxury but we still are now using more so we’re just playing with it as an entertainment no internet is the future of human beings just something so now we’re just using it as an entertainment no internet is the future of politics we’re going to every morning you wake up you have to make hundreds of hundreds of this feature because of your decentralized society globally so today he was out every four years rewrite the name on a paper and then the AG guy is going to either do a ten percent of what he claims so it’s a very very faulty system that using Internet properly which is being formed in using blogs and technologies named the quick democracy is going to change the whole atmosphere but again this is a topic I think it’s as far from the jobless future we want to focus on to say it all meaning don’t do it don’t even go for it I just want to agree that this will be a very interesting topic but you made a lot of assumptions house and I think one would need to project more carefully and also like just the faith also to like rethink could we go somewhere like or. Introduce and discuss for example one interesting question because I always feel like politics is fairy dependent on the contacts something that society lives in for example what Marx have said if you would have served in a world where there was like a lot of AI and automation maybe that’s something that would support his theory so I just want to throw it out and go on Michael Oh yeah I think you know the vision of an assumption that you may tell you and then I think and if you do I don’t imagine that Internet would be free right because it would become effective on that meant that you might write all to that supposed to like and anyway it was like a baby and by and named Maybe at some point it will be able to figure out Polly and you know about that but of course that in the knowledge would also become weak but you’d need that you had knowledge because that the only way I see you man being tragedy future because the next level you know this and I would need because I think that you Mannion with me they would be one thing that will keep on going to do you intend Thank goodness none of you know basically I’ll go but I’m up there. And you were the man who would need to our problem not me that is bad and we need to know they call it something or and maybe at some point will be given to a quiet be a man without a brain that that would be when we haven’t yet made things that we need that want to continue that we.
Are going to create and that would be and I might mean that it’s all would be welcome they say that’s a great point in a way we’re already getting towards that with people and their mobile phones I feel like a part of my brain is missing if my phone is out of batteries I can’t look things up I forget people’s names whereas it’s all in my phone if you give me two seconds alone of my phone I can look up almost anything and it’s better than consulting my long term memory in most cases All right well why don’t we take this in a different direction then I have another provocative. Question for you on the topic of our jobless future which is how will things stay the same I’d like us to do an exercise here in visualizing very carefully what a jobless future or a partly jobless future if we want to say looks like and thinking specifically about things that won’t change what parts of society or the environment or the physical world will continue unchanged even if most jobs have been automated and while you think about that I’ll give you my answer which is that many people for hundreds of years there’s a whole class of people that have been in a jobless future and it’s the nobility so I’d like to propose that that sort of lifestyle will continue into the future except on an expanded scale with more people enjoying such a lifestyle so does everyone know what the nobility is so I can define that for you if you like I’ll of course define it with my extended brain and not with my actual brain my extended brain being weiqi Pedia so nobility is a social class normally ranked immediately under royalty that possesses more acknowledged privileges and higher social status than most other classes in society membership there of typically being hereditary the privileges associated with nobility may constitute substantial advantages or may be largely on or area and may vary from country to country so that’s not exactly what I’m most interested in is this the idea that there hereditary or that they’re a privileged overclass more importantly I’m talking about the fact that most nobles wealth derived from one or more estates larger small that might include fields past year or churches Timberland hunting grounds streams etc So it included infrastructure such as castles wells and mills to which local peasants were sometimes allowed access but often as a price but nobles and here’s the key point we’re expected to live nobley that is. From the proceeds of these possessions work involving manual labor or subordination to those of lower rank was either forbidden or frowned upon socially So basically we have a class of individuals who lived off of their wealth who had enough possessions and were able to derive and off resources from those possessions that they never had to lift their fingers and do actual work in exchange for the things that they needed for their lives so imagine if you know a future world things are so cheap things are virtually free we have three D. printing we have robots running factories we have robots running transportation infrastructure that you can get all your food and build a house and have fancy electronics and everything else and robots have built almost every bit of it and so even the tiniest amount of money would be sufficient for you to live like a noble in the future and so I wonder if how will things stay the same in the future maybe we’ll have these kinds of people that live playing sports and reading books and living in idle life maybe there will just be many many more of such people that’s a very good point here is the number lately and I just want to short answer my own to a question that you asked previously what we do not change is that I showed in future in a jobless future I think all of the materialistic games that we used to play materialistic games I mean creating food maintaining our physical body health everything that is necessary for that to have shelter and all sorts of basic needs are going to be added wrist but automation and they’re going to be completely free in far future what will happen what we do not change in that society is the psychological humane games that humans really do how are they going to play those in the future reality they are going to play the same games I saw gordie nation dominance aggravation Hoff. And all these psychological games take place a view to a war and there we always be classed as a people different roads because he means love to play games if it’s not anymore available in the real life because of abundance if a lot of games are going to be destroyed tons of tons of new feature games are going to be there for us so we want to get bored that’s what’s not going to change I think anyone else with an answer to what will not change that’s a really compelling one OS I also think that there is like very basic psychologically reasons why people do what they do and so I agree with that with House on this one that this will probably be always around them the question is what exactly it is that motivates us to do something and what for example you were saying Michael that reading a book why are you sure the people in this world would read a book because they feel like now they do it to probably be better at something or challenge themselves until actually And so this is something that will create entertainment for themselves who create value for themselves and I think that’s so just snot having thought too much about it but I feel like creating value for yourself or poor people that you care about is something that will not change and will probably drive what we do this wanted to be I think the United Nations will become more powerful in the future and they’re probably right now if they don’t become more popular more damning and and maybe have a lot stronger as the in the up and consequent policy and I don’t think that media will continue to need it opinion who just want to just do something crazy for the economy all of those are the couple who are like some months of age and you know Jack Neil’s dog and he will want to have gained the level of mobility that Michael described would not be the national ticket was not trying to achieve the hassock Doesn’t society so maybe staples would go man’s will be awful and he almost had this in level obligations and also come from the team that’s based so I think I can you know again we’ve seen it was always and you know Daniel mash and you know so I think that’s probably due to not so what I’m hearing from everyone is. They’re convinced that subordination dominance aggression class struggle desire for status desire to dominate other people these sorts of things will continue to exist in the future and I’m going to certainly saying these are all bad things I mean maybe they are but let’s just take it for what it is dispassionately and say that this is what it is to be human is to want to I mean if you’ve ever shared a Facebook picture of yourself in front of some interesting place I’m sure at some part of that instinct to share that was to look good in front of other people so none of us are immune to this set of instincts that we were born with right anyway I wonder if that means that although automation may make the minimum level of prosperity it will raise that level in a way that will eliminate abject poverty it will nevertheless leave unchanged the struggle for status that occurs at basically every level of society it’ll just eliminate the lowest level of suffering that can happen or the worst level of suffering that can happen because now everyone will have access to a nice house and food and the Internet and other things and so the worst you could possibly do is to have a mediocre life in such a future where you can question Michael lastly to balance my extreme optimism today I would also mention that B. humans have so far almost sapience have proven to be very adaptive because we depend on our large group corporations but again we are not very distant from other animals and history even recent history has shown that rapid changes would fail many species so if our change of these changes if these transitions are going through gets really so fast that we as homo sapiens can’t adapt fast enough we are going to go extinct too so even though we can be optimistic about it even though. So there are many many ways we can see that things can work out for us but what’s also has to be can see there is that we have to be careful to design it as much as we can to prevent loss and to make it slow enough so that we as larger groups can at the apps to it as fast as necessary to have to that I think probably the next level of intelligence he said it would need to stat thinking about how can we make you mad and at back to the future maybe we want to how do we improve or augment you know usually even intelligence to get a focus that email keep being the dominant being of the future which I think will we will eat robots and I’d back to potty no my I saw now being the effect on your class of citizens in the war that we did so the question right now ID We need to also do new investments into algal e human I but it’s you know how do we. Know how do we ensure that humans stay at the top of a social or economic all of us all look the beauty strata and I think that would be the next level problem solving that we might insist.
On teens evil and in fact that’s what I’d like to ask us all to conclude this conversation which is what can we do today to make such a future world a better place and I think it does start with a conversation like what Michael’s asking us to have and I wonder if we can try doing that now what can we do today to ensure that humans continue to have a role in such a future world if that in fact is what we want and how would that work so one thing I think we can do is to try to separate responsibility areas and also the TA screen humans and AI’s for machines like there’s many fields and also that’s something that was already going on for example what you said earlier for forty five Sheens as the right tools to human sort of to leverage what. A human can do better than what a machine that’s to create a max mode approach and I think that’s something I actually work on to goof workers and manufacturing companies the right tools because I believe that in the first term this is surely like a jobless future surely not what will happen and I think this clear distinction will makes very aware on where we are going and I think that’s a good thing to be aware of for a good future and I’ll also want to add another necessity that you have to keep in mind in order to be cheery if better future is to exercise empathy wider and deeper what it means is that I think what keeps us as a large group of the species is inclusiveness his empathy plan because Cesar scimitars creates yours as us in the one group and we try to preserve that and we also have to extend this empathy and inclusiveness to all the any moment forms that are not at danger and also try to include them as well because we discussed the long time ago that how diversity is important and how we might need these diverse forms of life in future if you might not see today so why not taking all we can in the sheep of Noah that we’re taking without souls to the future because v humans have also shown that if you do not exist size empathy right enough we can turn into monsters that get so in a state that we turn into a single with specie and we want to devastate and collapse every other life form so that it’s human kept ability has hysteria shown so we have to keep exercising empathy that’s a very effective way I think we can keep a future in mind if I can quickly add exactly to that point I think in terms of diversity and sustainability of my machine dominated economy would be rather a good thing because we would also look towards a bright future we would try to have machines. Sort of humans and serve purposes that are beneficial for humans and I think one good thing about this would be that we could probably save on resources that are right now just being like exploited under the light of capitalism where people try to make the most money out of something and I think with machines we can actually try to control exactly of this more and have a more sustainable way for more sustainable supply chains doesn’t make sense more sustainable supply chains tenure yes by respecting the components within the supply chain by more wisely choosing them and by being so on my scent I think work with more machines or like a machine gun at economy will be less capitalistic and will also therefore tend less to exploit very valuable resources I think and it may I agree that we didn’t see these and it’s either we design empathy to that knowledge and all we do that I think I’ll do with empathy with empathy because I think that we human beings we’ve shown.
That we’re going to go animal rights that’s all that was and right and then we thought about OK you know right now I think we also need to these I think on to be excellent human beings how do we is that if you did I think P.C.P. doing it it’s a little.
Each.
Human being could just feel like that and believe that messy and straight men in Egypt if you if you should to be a.
Sickly temple so I think you won’t be focused once we should go by the next.
Look at empathy how don’t we acknowledge it because of the new ways and it could be just it’s true that we’re no go ahead most just want to us Michael you if you agree with that because then we would have a point where we all agree on but it will be a very important thing to a program to implement you’re asking me yes because all three of us just basically said the same thing so well yeah in fact I think that the historical evidence is that the first thing a leader does if they want to attack a different group one of the first things they do is to dehumanised that grew. Of course history is littered with examples of such things right in fact they’ve done statistical analyses of speeches before wartime atrocities and they found that if there is an uptick in the number of comparisons to animals that are being made if you’re comparing your opponents to animals then there’s a greater chance that there’s about to be an atrocity take place are a genocide or something like that so if you call your opponents pigs or insects or cockroaches or so that’s a very bad sign of what’s about to happen next so I completely agree that empathy is critical we have to widen and deepen our circle of empathy as Ha says to include these new forms of life that we’re going to be creating with artificial intelligences it’ll be very important that we include them in our circle of empathy as well as programming these AI’s and these robots to be empathetic towards us and as we’ve seen with the debate between Iran mosque and Marc soccer burg recently and more conversations about that it had taken place over the last few years that is a non-trivial problem to program robots with sufficient empathy that empathy will continue to exist and persists even after the robot becomes far more intelligent than its human programmer yet so maybe just a rabble so I’ve been in show question that you know maybe that when we know baby creates new and things at the will to create new problems right now with the body but the problem so that will be the next human energy and I know vision and that you know but you know that I wasn’t right no go I think it just goes back to the you know you might have to be back in the job now if you don’t but the thing about that is that you know vision also will contribute on problems that would then you are right you might you know to solve it’s a great point so I think that basically brings our conversation to a full circle here I wonder if it makes sense for us to have a elevator pitch battle like we like to have at the end of this does it make sense to think about a business I. Idea that relates to our jobless future maybe we need to program a robot to think of such a business idea but what do you guys think is it logical to have such a thing right now or should we not do that this time all right well this is going to be a big challenge for everyone let’s all take thirty seconds to think of something to say thank you for a business idea actually before we do that though I just want to bring any into the conversation so I haven’t met you before any but I know you’re here maybe you could just say hi to everybody if you have a microphone and can say hello you would need to amuse yourself first I see yourself muted there should be an orange button there any if you want to click on that and yourself to say hello I can just say I’m Michael Carey Hello nice to meet you and maybe everyone else can say hello just really briefly before if you are as as as and he’s fumbling for her a mute button Oh any I hope your pick to be we can hear you there I mean this is Daniel I just sent you and I’m you and request.
Me This is my go.
On this your they are right OK well even if it turns out you can’t that’s no problem technical issues have plagued all of us on the show at various times and so we’ve just sort of figured it out over time so feel free to come back next week if you can figure that out OK so let’s just take twenty seconds guys and let’s think of a business idea relating to this and then quickly pitch those ideas and that will be the show so everyone can start now right we have a comment here from any jobs as an anomaly of the future and I agree with you I think in the future it will be highly anomalous to have jobs maybe that will be a weird thing if somebody says I have a job and people be like what you have a job block chain based distribution network driven by is that fair enough or enough I feel like you must be speaking to party because those are she loves to decentralize organizations and so that makes a lot of sense is everyone else ready just let me know when you’re when you’re ready or when you’re not ready guys I’m ready OK it’s time for the elevator.
Each person has thirty seconds to pitch their business idea then there is a vote for the best idea let’s begin.
Michael So how about robots of the future sponsoring the prize purses for athletic competitions to give these jobless humans something to do so maybe in the future the Top ten thousand athletes in every conceivable human sport will be sponsored to the point where as long as they participate in competitions they will make their livelihood.
Michael Rennie Oh. I think.
That. Technology that helps him in doing what they’re still going to find any time we do right now so Chad. Maybe gets you to a hobbit D.V.D. and be sure to five years old or ten so that we can truly. Human face and spirit coming from any here is that the discovery of the athletes could be in my business idea could be based on pattern recognition and I could be built into smart community infrastructure but the idea of improving general cumin capacity is probably better better ideas like I like your idea to OK who’s next I can go next All right round three.
Valens wait so let me start with a thought I had earlier when we were talking about creativity and it will be replaced by machines and I was thinking about music because I feel like most people in the world or like the major part of the market is served by mainstream music that is very like highly adaptive to like actually be enjoyed by people as possible so this is very like also certain structure and I was thinking maybe that means or like it’s a reason why things that will scale will always be automated in the future. Because there’s already a eyes that actually do this kind of like pop music so maybe something critical will work on will just be like everything will be very nice and all the nice things that will be not only it will be jobs that will have but that’s just like my introductory thought and the idea is to have basically and that new types of music so this AI might be based on different eyes for different genres and then analyze how the posits like future are like the model of progress getting from a current stayed off like a music genre to like developing it further also often by mixing different genres so for example different AI’s analyze how this progress with this next step to like a new type of music was made and try to make all kinds of music that’s maybe an idea that will be hard to monetize but it will be something like more like an interesting experiment I guess to an AI that makes not just new music but new types of music that makes new genres of music I had a series of for the innovation question you know just to like it operate on the innovation question how much is it possible and also is that just replicating past innovation does that cover all new of innovation that could be there because that’s all part of the question if there will be a completely jobless future Yeah I mean we look at it deep blue being Kasparov and Watson finally beating the Jeopardy champions and then deep mind beating the go champion I wonder if yours is like an exhibition AI that’s going to defeat the world’s most creative musicians right it’ll be Paul McCartney verses your AI and your AI will show that even computers can be creative that’s cool I mean when there’s a need for creativity because as I said major parts of preparation I think can be satisfied with something very standardized for example also I think Ben Watson was at that also like made a trailer for a movie that was just based on watching something many other traits basically and it was in my opening the extremely good trailer it was nothing you know if it was like on music with on point cutting and everything was just really engaging and so that would be something that sets a lot of people up. It will be not like a new type of truth that will taste of our very specific people who have nice and I see and he’s linked us to your business ideas already been done Daniel that’s cool OK Well there you go oh and there’s the screenplay by the I too thanks that’s all so many I love us even if we can’t hear you this is fantastic I love thank you any alright hoss I believe you’re going to close us off quickly at the con because I also like what and he’s doing so we should add another AI assistants who are a project that will always analyze what we say and so clean everything with links thing that’s really cool unless I want to keep you guys out but maybe any is Parnesius it’s possible it’s possible.
Just kidding I’m sure I’m sure you’re real oh yes she is.
Why God will never know.
This is just the prototype Arnie and invented it over over and.
You know.
This is the big reveal guys have been telling jokes.
Oh no intentionally making typos seem more natural to see more humorous I see and he’s throwing in the sentence to good job I mean all right hoss go any I’m not gonna say there was and.
You can see the chat right hoss you could see that I call you new person you know what I think Marco that she can hear us.
This is part I don’t want to get too deep into the weeds here but but party party party invited invited a girl and.
Anyway I’m sure we’ll get a proper introduction someday but for now. Thank you I mean.
OK so my business idea was you know order to promise better future in a job to society we need to get off feedback from people more. Also that our priorities as large groups of people in making to channel better so how do we do that today one of the biggest problem is people who hate surveys which is very fundamental to this process but how can we alleviate the causes of their way that many people are more encouraged to take part in surveys the incentivize Everett’s by having a new creep the current would be allocated a source there is that you have and some taking part in series and that money that value would be created from high looking at. Groups of this is a meeting so let’s say if there is also the series that has been taking place among ten thousand people across the country that data is going to be valuable and this is a government based on that markets are going to be channelled towards that data that they would create profit because people pay for what those data are and many productions for them so it’s even been VO It’s a feedback from the market and people also would be more involved in this yet making every day as they would pay attention to surveys more that’s their business model I’m a firm today OK cool idea so you’re basically I mean what already exists is basically incentivizing service by offering like your goods and what you do is leveraging block same to like actually so so you make people who only takes recent something they’re interested in and they want to be part of the decision and that’s really cool that’s really nice awesome one flaw that any point out here is that maybe the survey is going to be out of date so maybe you want something literally real time like you see on like a Facebook interactive survey or something like that maybe a politician is giving a speech and they see in real time how they’re doing or something anyway no Interesting OK So let’s take a vote guys what would you like to decide is the best. Business Idea today is it Michael sees robots sponsoring athletic prize purses is it Michael O’s robot education to improve human capacity in the face of automation is it Daniel viz AI that can produce new types of music or is it Haas cryptocurrency funded surveys and everyone decided which idea they think is the best and any you get a vote too so don’t put it down yet but OK so now everyone’s decided right I’m assuming we’re OK say if you’re not OK I’m ready and three two one Michael I go OK I would have thought you and I quickly had the cryptocurrency fund does not really capture like the benefit of what holes were saying what Grant was say something like boxing based OK so I was cross but micro wins I guess damn So you’re calling it a miss vote is what you’re saying then you’re saying that I queried the results did I So I just said that you could call the way that I would not have voted for it but I but I voted for it anyway because I run it ironic that hoss’s idea was precisely about taking better surveys and I ruined the survey sorry but. Nevertheless let’s not let that ruin the purity of the victory for our friend Michael Oh here congratulations. You know. This is the battle of.
The green Oh yes that’s right.
So yeah I think that was a great idea OK So Any other final parting comments before we say good night or good morning i need don’t hear these guys and join us next time you devalued microphone.
If you can if you can develop the programming in time to synthesize human speech and please.
You will find that we don’t know what’s real and what’s not anymore.
Yes.
OK well thanks guys this is really fun. I knew.
It was a question about a lot of topics very broad topics I think we should continue that some later point but for now I really enjoyed it and have a good day and I would like. It was not a discussion to.
Think it was all right thanks guys have a good day I might.
Make a few music. Christy and.
Keywords
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